LET US REASON TOGETHER (A COMPILATION)

[tomdurst]

LET US REASON TOGETHER

[Note: Below is a compilation of several of my writings on the topic of hell, everlasting punishment, the wrath of God, Heaven, and the afterlife. I realize that this doesn’t answer all the questions that could be raised but is only presented for your prayerful consideration. “Take what appeals to you and leave the rest.” TD]

THOUGHTS ABOUT HEAVEN, HELL, AND THE AFTERLIFE

Hebrews 9:27 New Living Translation (NLT)

27 And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment. .

Hebrews 9:27 The Message (MSG)

27 Everyone has to die once, then face the consequences.

Revelation 22:11 New Living Translation (NLT)

11 Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.

Galatians 6:7-8 New Living Translation (NLT)

7 Don’t be misled—you cannot mock the justice of God. You will always harvest what you plant. 8 Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that sinful nature. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit.

There are numerous points of view about life after death among religions and philosophies. Many Christians line up their "proof texts" to establish just what will happen when we die and include in these lists what establishes their point and ignore the verses that contradict it. Whole books have been written on this topic from several Christian perspectives as well as others. No one yet has taken videos on the other side so that we can know exactly what will happen when we pass from this life. Any belief is in the end an article of faith and while I have my own ideas I still have to recognize their inadequacy. I don't think that those who really strongly feel that their belief about what happens upon death is absolutely correct would lose anything by moving forward in humility. Because I choose to believe in a certain teaching will not make it true no matter how strongly I believe in it. Sometimes I've felt that some folks seem to feel if they just keep affirming something they believe and work hard enough to convince others of it that this will somehow make it true.

I'm very appreciative of the way THE MESSAGE renders Hebrews 9:27: "Everyone has to die once, then face the consequences." It seems very clear to me that whatever we sow we shall reap (Galatians 6:7, 8). This seemed very clear to me even in my childhood years before I received any specific religious teaching. Everyday we face the consequences either good or bad which our choices bring about. This is inescapable. I think that when we pass from this present life we shall be where our choices have led us. I believe that the concept that we will go straight to heavenly bliss upon death regardless of how we've lived in this life is very deceptive if taken seriously. It also is an insult to the justice of God as well as any sense of fairness. Heaven in simplest terms is the experience of the presence of God. Hell is living in a sense of separation from God and those who live this way experience "hell" constantly. Living outside of fellowship with God IS indeed terrible and the suffering is endless. Outside of God (the heavenly city) there is only death and being with God (the New Jerusalem) is LIFE. I personally believe that those who pass from this life who have chosen to live outside of "the heavenly city" will continue to BE outside of that city but NOT in a state of eternal conscious torment. I believe that the doctrine of an "everlasting burning hell" to be from "the pits of hell." Were those who live apart from God to be ushered into the presence of endless love they would be indeed tormented. Those who have chosen to live INSIDE "the heavenly city" in this present life will pass into God's presence in a way that none of us can even begin to imagine (1 Corinthians 2:9-10; Philippians 1:23-24). When we pass from this life we take our state of consciousness with us.

I have read a number of books on Near Death Experiences (NDEs) as well as out of body experiences. I would certainly not wish to dispute anyone's experience in any area but all of our experiences are very subjective and colored by where we are in our life journey. I would not wish to take a position that these experiences are definitive as to just what happens when we leave this present plane for whatever is beyond.

There is a lot of mystery involved in this whole topic but what does seem clear to me is that everyday HERE AND NOW we can choose Heaven and experience its joys. All are invited to the heavenly feast but few choose to partake of it--so very sad. "And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let the one who hears say: 'Come!' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wants it take the water of life free of charge."--Revelation 22:17 (NET Bible) Anyway, I seek with all of my heart to enter into that Heavenly state right now and continue to do so everyday. Those who experience God's love in our lives here and now shall indeed continue to enjoy His presence in ways that were not possible while living in the limitations of a physical body. Exactly what this will look like no one knows and if we needed to know it would have been revealed to us (Deuteronomy 29:29; 1 John 3:1-3).

"A human being fashions his consequences as surely as he fashions his goods or his dwelling. Nothing that he says, thinks or does is without consequences."--Norman Cousins

IS THERE EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT?

Is there everlasting punishing perpetrated by an angry God upon poor sinners? Will unrepentant sinners burn in a place called "hell" throughout eternity? I would emphatically say NO to both questions, although a literal reading of certain mistranslations contained in most English Bibles would indicate an ever-burning hell for the lost--a total lie! The word "hell" never appears even once in the original languages of either the OT or NT. It isn't within the scope of this article to deal with all of that. However, there is another aspect of "everlasting punishment" that we need to consider. Hear me out.

Sin is defined in various ways by spiritual students and whole books have been written on the topic. For my purposes here I would like to focus on two aspects of sin which to me seem very clear:

1. Sin is self-centered, ego based thinking and living. Some results of such thinking might include hate, revenge, power trips, worship of the body, indifference to the needy and marginalized of society, unforgiveness, materialism, dishonesty, lying, jealousy, witchcraft, immorality, etc. The Bible refers to such as "works of the flesh" in several places often giving specific lists (e.g. Galatians 5:19-21).

2. Sin is anything in our lives which displaces God or takes first place and attention above Him. The first commandment is "You shall not have any gods before Me." Things such as food, certain substances, the pains and pleasures of the body, entertainment and even our own opinions can easily become idolatrous and self-centered if we don't continually watch and pray to make sure that we aren't having any gods in our life but the one True God who is above all, through all, and in all (see Ephesians 4:6).

I could give many, many specific examples of the above two principles and how they can play out in our lives but for now wish to leave that to the reader. My main point is simply:

ANY FORM OF SELF-CENTEREDNESS OR PUTTING ANYTHING IN OUR LIVES AHEAD OF GOD, EVEN IN THE SMALLEST DEGREE, BRINGS ITS OWN PUNISHMENT AND THIS PUNISHMENT IS "EVERLASTING" IN THAT IT DOESN'T CEASE UNTIL THE WRONG THINKING AND BEHAVIOR CEASES. THERE IS NO TRUE FORGIVENESS WITHOUT REFORMATION OF THE LIFE.

Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death and death here broadly interpreted could mean suffering in any form. Even so-called minor irritations or feelings of anger are little forms of death. Every kind of wrong thinking and behavior, everything that occupies a larger place in our lives than God does, brings pain and suffering that goes on endlessly until the thinking and behavior is turned in a Godward direction and there is genuine repentance and a turning of the life around. There is NO escaping the self-punishing results of living apart from God for He IS our life. The punishment goes on and on and on until there is a CHANGE and a turning in a totally different direction. The process of repentance or turning our lives around in a life-affirming direction is a lifelong commitment. As we grow spiritually we become more aware all the time of needed changes in our life and we must have the courage to change.

I firmly believe that the biggest wrong choices we make are to live for the ego and to neglect a personal relationship with the Living God in whom we live, move, and have our being (Acts 17:28). If God is the One in whom our life essentially resides and we fail to live in that Divine Center we are choosing punishment that comes to us as a natural result of our wrong decisions.

Note the words of the Psalmist:

I've had my fill of trouble;
I'm camped on the edge of hell. Psalm 88:3 (The Message)

When we get sick enough of the suffering that goes with self-centered thinking and not putting God first in our lives we'll finally say, "I've had my fill of trouble" and decide to change. We are literally "camped on the edge of hell" and tormented continually by our wrong choices. Enough is enough! The self-punishing and suffering must stop. I am of the belief that there is hope beyond this present life and that the work of purification will continue when we pass on to the next plane of our journey. It seems to me that somewhere either in this life or the next we shall indeed have to face our issues and experience whatever is needed to bring us back to our senses and to the point we bow and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God (Philippians 2:10-11). I think there are revelations of God's love that will be given that will ultimately burn all of this self-centeredness out of us so that we will no longer desire to be in bondage to it. None of the details of this process is clearly in the Bible so we must each seek the face of God as we seek to understand His mysteries.

I think these words summarize what I'm trying to say better than any I could ever find:

"Don't be misled: No one makes a fool of God. What a person plants, he will harvest. The person who plants selfishness, ignoring the needs of others—ignoring God!—harvests a crop of weeds. All he'll have to show for his life is weeds! But the one who plants in response to God, letting God's Spirit do the growth work in him, harvests a crop of real life, eternal life."--Galatians 6:7, 8 (The Message)

WHAT IS THE WRATH OF GOD?

The wrath (passion) of God is His mercy encountering our sin and making all things new. His wrath (passion) encounters our ego, destroys it in the glory of His love, and creates us a new man in Christ. Jesus was wounded for our sins. He literally took our wounded condition upon Himself and healed it through His shed blood in order that we can be healed. This healing includes ALL. To the extent that we resist this healing we continue to suffer and are choosing darkness. At some point, which God only knows, we will see that heaping suffering upon ourselves by clinging to the old ego self is truly “hell.” We will joyfully surrender to the unspeakable revelation of love and mercy and freely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11). Thus, the wrath (passion) of God, His mercy encountering our sin and rebellion, will win our heart and transform us into loving Him instead of continuing to flee from His presence. This topic, like all others, is only understood by really understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ and the utter fullness of what salvation really means. In summary, salvation is wholeness, healing and full restoration into the image and likeness of God. The gospel of Jesus Christ is ALWAYS GOOD NEWS as taught by the inspired writers throughout the entire Bible. It is never “hellfire and brimstone,” although that version is still the one which has dominated Christianity after the first five centuries of its existence. It is truly time for a new reformation! The doctrine of eternal conscious torment, or even a milder version of it such as burning for a shorter time and then being being annihilated, are not in harmony with the character of God in any way. Sometime hold a lighted match under one finger and see how long that lasts. “Come now, and let us reason together.”—Isaiah 1:18

Summary Statement: The word "wrath" is applied to God many times in both Old and New Testaments and we have the terrible judgments of the seals, trumpets, and plagues in Revelation. I think these had a local application at the time they were written in connection with the end of the Jewish age, the Jewish Roman wars, and the destruction of Jerusalem. However, they have a wider application as well. Those who choose to live apart from God and live according to dictates of their self-centered nature WILL suffer terrible consequences in some cases according to the degree suffering that is chosen by rejecting the principles upon which the Kingdom of God operates. God does NOT prevent such suffering and is not to blame for it. So in a summary that is how I see the wrath of God.

These verses will help you to understand more fully what I’m sharing above. Please take some time to prayerfully go over every one of them. Especially pray for spiritual discernment to see what these verses are actually saying: Proverbs 13:15; Isaiah 53:5-8; Daniel 12:10; Romans 6:1-7; 14:11; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 2:10-11; 1 Peter 2:21-25.

THE LAKE OF FIRE

“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.”—Malachi 3:1-4 ESV

“. . .our God is a consuming fire.”—Hebrews 12:29 ESV

The Apostle John uses the metaphor of “the lake of fire” in describing this process of purification (Revelation 19:20; 20:14-15). I see this "lake of fire” as a pool of God’s love that we plunge ever deeper into as we experience more of His love and grace. It is NOT a place of hellfire and eternal punishment—far from it!! As we immerse ourselves in that pool of God’s love it will consume "the hell" out of us and sometimes that can be exceedingly painful. Only God knows how all of this purification will play out either in this life or the next so I will not venture to speculate on the details (Deuteronomy 29:29). We cannot enter the fullness of the Kingdom of God until we are indeed “purified, refined, and made white.”—Daniel 11:35 ESV It is only through increasing revelations of and experiencing more of the love of God in our innermost being that we can ever find true fulfillment. No one can escape this purification so it is wise to surrender to the inescapable love of God each day and experience His peace, joy, and love.

THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT

Revelation 14:9-12 (New International Version)

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

These verses have been used to prove that some people will burn in a very literal hell throughout eternity. Many scholars have pointed out that the expression "for ever and ever" as in the Greek is often used in the sense of "as long as the situation lasts" or "of a limited duration until a particular contingency no longer exists." A literal translation would be "to the ages of the ages." The age of ages” does not refer to an endless duration of time but rather a specific age that serves a specific purpose. That age will end when its purpose is accomplished.

The Greek word "basonos" translated as "torment" should be properly translated as "tested" and is so rendered or something close that in a number of NT verses. So we have a testing process going on here which lasts as long as it needs to. The verse is NOT teaching that people will be tormented throughout eternity. Many articles and whole books have been written on this topic by earnest Bible students.

There was an immediate, historic application for "the beast and its image" at the time John wrote this. It is beyond the scope of this article to go into all of that. However, in a much larger sense, I believe that the beast and his image represent that ego based, self-centered way of thinking and living which is the essence of what is called "sin" in Christian faith. All who engage in the egocentric system in which most of our present world still operates will indeed receive "the mark of the beast" which I believe is self-centered living taking over the life with all of the consequences that results from this. We see this played out everyday if we pay any attention at all to the media that bombards us continually. The power struggles and personal or international wars are endless.

There is indeed no rest day or night and continual suffering for those who live within the system of the world. They suffer forever and ever for as long as they continue to live in bondage to the ego. There is no peace for them. Our God is a consuming fire and only the fire of His unfathomable love can burn out of us the impurities that keep us from experiencing His peace (see Hebrews 12:29). This refining process is "hell" in its purest form. The suffering that we bring upon ourselves is indeed like "hellfire and brimstone." The burning sulphur is used as a symbol of whatever processes are necessary to purify our hearts to be fit for fellowship in the Kingdom of God. A simple concordance study will show how often in scripture fire is used in connection with judgment and purification.

As a case in point, if you talk to a drug addict or alcoholic who has recovered he/she will tell you of the terrible suffering that accompanied the addiction until one day it was decided enough is enough! The person says, "I'm sick and tired of suffering like this and must change." Through God's help and oftentimes with the encouragement of a supportive community committed recovery starts. The reason why 12 Step recovery groups are so effective is that people receive unconditional love to work through their problems instead of having guilt [hellfire and brimstone] heaped upon them. This love provides motivation for change.

Anything in our life that is bringing suffering, such as holding on to the "pleasure" of resentments and refusing to extend forgiveness and love will only be forsaken through the same process of finding more about God's unconditional love and forgiveness and experiencing its awesome power. We have barely scratched the surface of the power of love and forgiveness

Yes, the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever until repentance and change takes place. We need to realize also that God's purifying fire [hell, wrath] is often very painful. The hell that we inflict upon ourselves by our wrong choices often can't be stopped in a flippant easy way. I wouldn't be prepared to spell in detail just how God's purifying fire works in our lives right now except to say that it is very thorough and surrender is better than prolonging the suffering by being stubborn and resistant. How God works in purifying us and our own choices to stop heaping suffering upon ourselves all fit together is a topic that all of us need to study more. I don't profess to have all the answers but am searching for more light.

In the natural world we usually use fire to bring light or to consume trash that we want to get rid of and when the trash is burned up the fire will go out as there is nothing left to destroy. The same is true with God's cleansing fire which I believe in the ultimate sense is such a revelation of love which is now incomprehensible that it will literally purify the ego-based consciousness out of us forever. There is a revelation of Divine Love yet to come that will "burn the hell" out of us. We will see the futility of the self-centered way and never want to live that way again. Sin will be fully conquered by the blood [life] of the Lamb.

According to verse 12 of the above quoted passage this whole process of purification takes patient endurance and faithfulness. Most of us really struggle with that as we want instant cures from our issues but most of the time it doesn't work that way. The ego, that old devil and Satan, doesn't give up without a huge struggle. This ego is very deeply embedded in our consciousness--far more than we usually realize. So if you're serious about purification in your life fasten your seat belt as there could be a bumpy ride ahead. Trying to avoid this process is to choose a lot of pain and suffering but sooner or later we all must learn anyway. There is no escape--not for anyone. Why delay the inevitable?

2 Corinthians 6:1-2 (New Living Translation)

1 As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it. 2 For God says,

“At just the right time, I heard you.
On the day of salvation, I helped you.”

Indeed, the “right time” is now. Today is the day of salvation.

I invite you to read from my UNION WITH GOD DEVOTIONAL FORUM as often as you can. Just click on the link below:

UNION WITH GOD DEVOTIONAL FORUM